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Les trains blindés

Une question sur un blindé, une arme, du matériel, un canon, un véhicule, une locomotive de la seconde guerre mondiale?
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Re: Les trains blindés

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 21  Nouveau message de Didier  Nouveau message 01 Nov 2013, 21:54

Merci Alex pour le fil !

Moi dans la même lignée que le littorina blindata j'ai un gros faible pour le superbe autorail blindés soviétique "MBV" un vrai petit cuirassé sur rail !

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ici : http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/ ... trains.htm

il y a eut joli petit article dans le batailles et blindés n°15

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Re: Les trains blindés

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 22  Nouveau message de alfa1965  Nouveau message 01 Nov 2013, 21:58

En effet Didier, au fur et à mesure, je commence à trouver ce sujet passionnant et pourtant je ne suis pas un fan de la vie du rail.
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Re: Les trains blindés

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 23  Nouveau message de alfa1965  Nouveau message 01 Nov 2013, 22:20

alfa1965 a écrit:En effet Didier, au fur et à mesure, je commence à trouver ce sujet passionnant et pourtant je ne suis pas un fan de la vie du rail.

J'ai franchit le "pas", j'ai écrit à Mondo Ferroviaro , l'équivalent de la Vie du Rail, pour savoir s'il n'y a pas un numéro spécial.
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Re: Les trains blindés

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 24  Nouveau message de Tomcat  Nouveau message 20 Nov 2015, 15:45

Un hors-série vient de sortir qui devraient vous intéresser:

Champs de bataille thématique n°43: L'histoire des trains blindés, du XIXe au XXe siècle.

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Re: Les trains blindés

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 25  Nouveau message de Didier  Nouveau message 20 Nov 2015, 15:58

Bonjour,

Ah merci !! je pense que j'ai trouvé mon prochain achat en kiosque ;)

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Re: Les trains blindés

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 26  Nouveau message de alfa1965  Nouveau message 20 Nov 2015, 16:04

Moi aussi, pourtant j'en vois passer des trains, jusqu'à la nausée !
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Re: Les trains blindés

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 27  Nouveau message de Tomcat  Nouveau message 20 Nov 2015, 16:45

Je l'ai acheté, juste parcouru pour l'instant mais il semble très intéressant !

Bonne future lecture :-)

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Re: Les trains blindés

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 28  Nouveau message de Prosper Vandenbroucke  Nouveau message 20 Nov 2015, 17:14

Bonjour à toutes et à tous,
Il y a également un ancien fil au sujet des trains blindés ouvert sur ce forum:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=28735&p=346574&hilit=Trains+blind%C3%A9s#p346574
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Re: Les trains blindés

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 29  Nouveau message de Tomcat  Nouveau message 23 Nov 2015, 16:28

Le hors-série est très bien pour connaitre l'histoire générale de leurs conceptions et les différents modèles, par contre il manque cruellement de récits de combats impliquant les trains blindés et de leurs résultats opérationnels...ce sont des infos que j'ai du mal à trouver par ailleurs malheureusement.

Quelqu'un aurait-il des infos sur les combats impliquant les trains blindés, leurs pertes, et leurs résultats opérationnels ?

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Re: Les trains blindés

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 30  Nouveau message de Tomcat  Nouveau message 01 Déc 2015, 16:14

J'ai trouvé un article intéressant relatant quelques faits d'armes des trains blindés russes:
http://soviethammer.blogspot.fr/p/russi ... rains.html

Great Patriotic War:

The quite successful use made of armoured trains in the first months of war proved their effectiveness, and rail depots in many towns where converted to produce armoured trains. In August-September 1941 around 20 slightly modified armoured trains were produced. Their blueprints were developed at the Poltava locomotive-repairing factory and it was named NKPS-42. The NKPS-42 was, in fact, a simplified BP-35 with more reliable armor. However, this depot was generally low on specific equipment, and their armoured trains had quite an improvised design.

One of these armoured trains was the one built in my native town Voroshilovgrad (now Lugansk). This story began in summer 1941, when workers of Kolomna plant "imeni S.V.Kujbysheva", Brjansk plant "imeni Profinterna" and Voroshilovgrad locomotive-building plant "imeni Oktjabrskoj revolutsii" decided to build two armoured trains and equip them with volunteers. By the end of September 1941 the first of them was built at Kolomna, named "Osobyj bronepoezd №1" and sent to front. It fought at the battle for Moscow between Mozhajsk and Gzhatsk stations, and was destroyed by the end of year. Another one, being under construction in Brjansk, soon was endangered by advancing German troops and was evacuated in mid August, 1941, to Voroshilovgrad along with materials, numerous workers and their families. Immediately after arriving to Vorshilovgrad, all local specialists also began to work. Among them were those veterans who participated in building armoured trains in Lugansk in 1918
Works were organised during all days long, without breaks. The armoured train itself was very powerful for its time, consisting of one armoured locomotive (Ov series), two strike armoured wagons (each with two turrets with long-barrel 76mm guns and 6 machiineguns), two heavy armoured wagons with one 107mm gun each, five armoured wagons with AA guns, two heavy and two light armoured SP trolleys, two armoured cars and one armoured SP mover. As usual, there also was "base" common train with 2 passenger and 16 freight cars.
October 23rd, 1941, an armoured train, named №2 "Za Rodinu", equipped largely with local volunteers, under command of A.L.Bondarenko departed Voroshilovgrad plant and deployed at Rodakovo (large rail station not far from Voroshilovgrad). Soon, though, it was subordinated to 18th Army and redeployed closer to Rostov-na-Dony, where Germans made efforts to capture it. From that moment on the armoured train was constantly was in action keeping the defensive line between Rovenki and Zapovednaja, protecting the railroad Donbass-Rostov-Moscow, fighting with German tanks near Novoshakhtinsk, destroying German groups penetrating the frontline along Novocherkassk-Shakhty rail line. For example, during just one day November 28th, armoured train fired more than 1000 shells at German positions near Aleksandrovka.

On November 29th, Soviet troops recaptured Rostov (earlier captured by Germans). But soon the Germans began a new attack in the direction of Debaltsevo, trying to capture Voroshilovgrad and Alchevsk. The armoured train "Za Rodinu" was relocated back to Donbass. On December 6th it arrived to Debaltsevo Marshalling Yard. One day, performing a recoinnaissance raid, it was caught in a trap laid by the Germans, who destroyed the rail line behind it. But by working all night long, the crew was able to repair the rails and escape. At the same time the Germans cancelled their counterattacking efforts in the Voroshilovgrad and Rostov directions.
Effective actions of armoured trains forced the Germans to respond. On December 28th, after another successfull raid on Debaltsevo, an armoured train was returning to its base. Between Manuilovka and Debaltsevo it was attacked by 8 or 9 bombers. Two of them were shot down with massive AA fire, but several near hits threw the armoured locomotive off the track, several soldiers, including locomotive engineer Rubezhanskij and armoured train commander Bondarenko were wounded. During the night the rail line was repaired, the locomotive arrived from Alchevsk and decoupled train. The damaged armoured lcomotive was sent to Voroshilovgrad for repairs. But by the end of January the armoured train was ready for action again. Its new operation was night artillery attacks of Popasnaja rail station, which was captured and intensively used by Germans
In April 1942 commander A.L.Bondarenko and part of crew departed to a tank training center, while I.M.Bobrikov became the new commander of №2. Armoured train was united into battalion with another armoured train arrived from Poltava. Descent company was removed from armoured train and turned into destruction battalion.

The armoured train battalion operated near Debaltsevo until early July. Then new German offensive forced Russian troops to retreat over Severskij Donets river. July 13th, near Rodakovo armoured train battalion was moved to delay German units advancing on Voroshilovgrad. During these two days both armoured trains made brave raids, dispersing German infantry with direct fire near Slavjanoserbsk and Zimogorje stations. But July 15th became the last day in their fate
At a small "61st Kilometer" siding, between Rodakovo and Melovaja stations, it was attacked with massive German air raid. This first attack was repulsed with no casualties. Moving forward, the armoured train soon encountered enemy infantry that began to fire on it. Then the Germans made another air raid, damaging rail lines in front of and behind the armoured train. Several soldiers were killed, but the armoured train continued to fire on German infantry. By midday a large group of more than 30 bombers arrived. The immobile armoured train coudn't manoeuver and could only return fire, and this time Germans were much more successfull the armoured locomotive was heavily damaged, the tender destroyed with a direct hit, locomotive engineer and fireman mortally wounded, two armoured wagons thrown off the rails, flat cars put on fire. But the armoured train crew continued to fire from the remaining weapons By the end of day №2 "Za Rodinu" was completely destroyed, while another armoured train of this battalion was trapped between two large destroyed rail sections. So it was decided to retreat with remaining crew, and destory the remaining equipment. Near Melovaja station retreating crews were met by forward rifle units. The amazed riflemen asked:
So there were survivors in that slaughter-house?
As you see. was the answer. "Steel fortress" has died, but she saved many lives before that.

Further steps in armoured train design and production was made by the GKO (State Commitee of Defense) in late October 1941. According to their resolution, it was planned to create 32 armoured train battalions (2 armoured trains each) by 1.01.42. BP-35 and NKPS-42 armoured trains proved to be quite vulnerable: their large 4-axle armoured wagons were large, heavy and highly visible targets. In addition, the destruction of one armoured wagon meant the loss of half the armoured train's firepower. Thus a new armoured train project was designed, under the name OB-3. It used 2-axle armoured wagons, which had smaller dimensions and only one gun (thus increasing the survivability of the artillery). The design was hurried, and there was so little time that blueprints were sent to factories in separate parts as fast as they were ready - first, armor plates projections; second, wagon overview etc. The OB-3 was produced simultaneously at 9 NKPS (People's Commitee of Communication Lines) factories and 43 railroad depots. All the materials and equipment were local (it was the main feature of the production). i.e. only those depots which had metallurgical factories nearby were able to equip armoured trains with tempered steel armour (in fact, there were only 4 such armoured trains - "Luninetz", "Omskij zheleznodorozhnik", "Enisej" and "Krasnojaretz"). Some of the armoured trains were produced using common thin steel - two plates of such steel were placed with some distance between each other, and this "box" was filled with cement (thus forming stone-like "armour"). The Main Artillery Department of RKKA (responsible for the arming of armoured trains) in these difficult times could only spare old artillery systems, such as 76mm m.1902, 76mm m.1927, 76mm AA m.1914, 76mm tank guns L-10, and weapons captured in the Civil War- French and Polish guns (mle.98). Only occasionally were modern F-22 and F-34 76mm guns available in small numbers. The machine guns were of three different types: Maxim, DT and Browning captured from the Poles. The artillery systems and machine guns often lacked spare parts, while foreign systems were usually broken; artillery optics were almost absent. All these factors created tremendous difficulties for workers and (later) for crews.
Each OB-3 armoured train consisted of one armoured locomotive (usually OV or OK series steam locomotives with 30-50mm armour) with an AAMG turret, and 4 armoured wagons. Armoured wagons had 30-80mm armour (often laminated or concrete-filled as described above) positioned at an angle of 30 degrees. Each wagon's armament was one gun in a hexagonal turret and five machine guns (four in the corners of the wagon and one in the turret). The wagon did not have any optical devices (except the gun sight), so all observation was made through the openings and hatches. The crew was 12 men. Due to the difficulties of initiating production, only 10 such armoured trains were built by 1.01.42. During January the RKKA received 12 trains, during February - 17, during March - the last 26. Therefore 65 OB-3 armoured trains were produced. During the creation of a battalion, each armoured train received one PVO-4 AA armoured wagon. This wagon had 2 20-25mm guns or 2 12.7mm AAMGs. OB-3's were used very intensively and effectively in 1942; however, such intensive use and the low quality of materials lead to relatively high losses (overall 20 OB-3 armoured trains were lost out of the 65 built, most of them in 1942).
OB-3 begin to participate in battles in the Spring of 1942. They proved themselves in the oncoming heavy battles, such as Voronezh, Kharkov, Stalingrad and the Northern Caucasus. It is interesting, that OB-3 sometimes were used for AA defense (a task, for which OB-3 originally wasn't designed). For example, on June 28th, 1942, an armoured train "Juzhnouralskij zheleznodorozhnik" under command of captain I.E.Orlov, covered the rear areas of the 40th Army and the 121st Rifle Division at the Schigry Marmyzhi rail line. For 14 hours the armoured train constantly fought with German aviation, repulsing more than 10 raids, bringing down 5 planes. By the evening, the armoured train had expended all its ammunition and the enemy planes got a chance to destroy the rails at Marmyzhi station. Unable to move and in danger of a German breakthrough, the crew blew up the armoured train and retreated on foot.

Armoured trains were used during the battles of the Northern Caucasus, in the autumn of 1942. Often they made suicidal stands but proved willing to obey such orders. One of these cases happened in October 1942.
The Germans, bringing fresh troops into the theater, began an offensive toward Elkhotovo Ardon Vladikavkaz and Elkhotovo Beslan. Soon it became clear that there was real danger of a German breakthrough through the so-called "Elkhotovo Gates" directly toward Vladikavkaz. On October 29th, 1942, the 36th Battalion of Armoured Trains was deployed in the area, consisting of the armoured train №731 "Vpered, na zapad!" near Alagir and №717 "Orenburgskij zheleznodorozhnik" near Ardon.
In the morning mist of October 30th, the armoured trains took their positions. By 11:00, when the mist lifted, №717 was attacked by 18 planes. Constantly maneuvering, the armoured train was able to shot down two of its attackers, when German tanks appeared nearby. During this very long day, the armoured train was able to repulse three German tank attacks. Two of its armoured wagons were destroyed, the rail line around it was heavily damaged, so it was not able to move. With nightfall, when all its guns were destroyed or damaged, the armoured train commander I.I.Fandej ordered the remnants of crew to retreat to Alagir. During 7 hours of battle the armoured train managed to destroy or damage 22 German tanks and armoured carriers.

№731 entered the battle the next morning. Masked in the brushes, it allowed Germn tanks to come near and then opened fire. Its deadly point blank fire destroyed 6 tanks and 3 armoured carriers. But soon counter fire found the most vulnerable point of the train. Two German shells exploded inside the armoured locomotive control post. The armoured train’s commander, V.F.Galushko, and the entire locomotive team were killed. At the same time, splinters damaged the breaks, and the armoured train began to move down the mountain slope, gaining the speed and firing from its remaining guns. In Ardon at a maximal possible velocity it ran into the abandoned remnants of №717
As a result, by sacrificing all its armoured trains, the 36th Battalion delayed the German advance for 24 hours, allowing other troops to regroup and close the approaches.
Another armoured train design was "Kozma Minin", built in February 1942 at Gorkij wagon depot. Unlike the "light" OB-3, its armoured wagons were the successors of BP-35 and NKPS-42 - large 4-axle wagons. Each covered armoured wagon had two standard T-34 tank turrets - with a total of two 76mm guns and 6 MGs (two MGs in the turrets and four MGs in the hull). The armour was 45mm thick. Each open armoured wagon had one M-8 rocket launcher and 2 37mm AA guns. The armoured train had one armoured locomotive, two covered and two open armoured wagons (plus 3-4 flat cars, as usual).

The last armoured train type, BP-43, was the final stage of war-time Soviet armoured train design. In short, it was a hybrid of OB-3 and "Kozma Minin". It had light, 2-axel PL-43 armoured wagons armed with one T-34 tank turret. The number of MGs was decreased to 3 per armoured wagon (one in the turret and two in each side of the wagon with a better field of fire than in previous designs). Each BP-43 armoured train consisted of four PL-43 armoured wagons and two PVO-4 AA armoured wagons (as described above), plus, usually one AAMG in the armoured locomotive. Overall 21 BP-43 armoured trains were produced for the RKKA plus an unknown number for the NKVD.
The To&E of a pre-war armoured trains is shown above. Here is an example of the war-time To&E of the 31st Independent Special Gorkovskij Armoured Train Battalion. It consisted of two armoured trains ("Kozma Minin" and "Ilja Murometz"), one common locomotive (S-179), one self-propelled armoured trolley (type BD-39), two BA-20 armoured cars, three motorcycles, 10 trucks and an infantry detachment (about two rifle platoons plus 6 82mm mortars). A total of 335 men. Unfortunately, it is hard to say whether these numbers are standard, or battle-worn.
It is necessary to say several words about self-propelled armoured wagons, trolleys and railroad chassis armoured cars.

The MBV self-propelled armoured wagon was designed in 1936-1937 by SKB-2 (Special Construction Bureau) at S.M.Kirov's Factory in Leningrad. Its construction included many of the details and solutions of the T-28 medium tank (which was designed and produced at this factory too). It was an original form, with a specially designed 5-axle platform; one of its carriages, with 2-axles, drove, whilst the other, with 3-axles, was pulled. The armoured train weighed 79.8 tonns, and had a crew of 40 men. The Armour was 16-20mm thick (placed at small angles). The M-17T gasoline engine (500hphad a top speed of 120kph. The armament was three fully armed T-28 tank turrets and five MGs in the hull plus a quad-Maxim AAMG. Overall it had very powerful combination of 3 76mm guns and 16 (7 in the turrets, 5 in the hull, 1x4 AAMG) 7.62mm MGs. The ammunition carried was 365 shells and 32,962 bullets. The self-propelled armoured wagons had a very successful design and were used throughout the war; although relatively lightly armoured, they had very powerful armament and excellent speed. They were produced before the war (about 40 wagons) and in the first months of war. The armoured wagons possessed more effective firepower than the light BP-35 armoured train and about three times greater speed. Also, although its armour was thinner, it was a much smaller target (and therefore harder to hit) than any other armoured train. Therefore it could be considered to have been a more effective weapon than armoured train. Some of MBV's were produced with T-34 turrets.
The self-propelled armoured trolley (BD) was much smaller, had gasoline engine and was used for recon, cover and support. The exact data is not available to me, but I remember one old photo of such a vehicle seen about 10 years ago. There were several types of them. One of them, three-axle, armed with 45mm guns and several MGs, another, four-axle, armed with 76mm gun and several MGs. Also there were armoured SP mover (quite small) and armoired SP motorissa (larger than SP trolley but smaller than MBV, armed with 76mm gun in KV turret and several MGs).
The Armoured cars were the common armoured cars (D-2, BA-6, BA-10, BA-20), but they had spare metal wheels and special lift devices, so, after a small modification in field conditions, they were able to move by railroad. The armament remained the same as the original model. Older models (such as D-2) were mostly used by NKVD troops by 1941.

The other branch of the Soviet armoured train family were the anti-aircraft types, used to cover the important rail nodes, junctions and bridges. The first were built in early 1942, when it became evident, that such trains could serve as a very effective mobile AA batteries. Typically, these trains consisted of one armoured locomotive and five 2-axle armoured wagons (with 12-15mm armour). Three wagons were each armed with one 76.2mm AA gun, while the other two - with one 37mm AA gun and one 12.7mm DShK AAMG each. Sometimes 37mm guns were used instead of 76.2mm. Often these trains were reinforced with embarked AA units, usually 12.7mm AAMG (company 9 HMG). AA armoured trains were capable not only of firing their guns from the wagons but also of disembarking them for use in nearby areas. The second operation was the norm when guarding railroad objectives, while the first was used only when German planes were encountered while moving. There were 8 armoured trains concentrated at the battle of Stalingrad, and 35 at Kursk. Overall during the war 200 such trains were built. Usually they were used in independent roles. In fact, they proved to be quite powerful mobile AA units.

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