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"Avant-débat sur Malte"-"Before the Malta meeting" 29/01/10

De l'assaut sur Dakar à la bataille d'El Alamein, les combats en Méditerranée. Opération Torch et la suite logique avec le débarquement en Sicile et les affrontements dans la péninsule italienne. Anzio, Monte Cassino, le Garigliano...
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"Avant-débat sur Malte"-"Before the Malta meeting" 29/01/10

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 1  Nouveau message de Enrico Cernuschi  Nouveau message 22 Jan 2010, 15:59

Salut les gars,

on 13 Aug. 1942 a French patrol vessel stopped and boarded the British motorship Brisbane Star bount to Malta and, after to have searched, allowed her to go on. She arrived the day after in the Grand Harbour.

I would like to know which was the French vessel and if is there any detail about that episode.

Merci

EC


 

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Re: Monastir (Tunisie) 13 Aout 1942

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 2  Nouveau message de brehon  Nouveau message 22 Jan 2010, 16:50

Bonjour,
Le Brisbane Star faisait partie du convoi de l'opération Pédestal.
Dans un article de Luc Feron paru dans Marines et Forces navales n°122, il est indiqué qu'il fut touché par une torpille lancée par un avion le 12 août 42 dans la soirée. Il réussit à gagner La Valette le 14 août à 15h30. Dans cet article il n'est pas fait mention d'intervention de bâtiments français.
Mais, sur ce site:
http://www.maltaconvoyaug42.com/brisbanestar.html
un rapport du capitaine du Melbourne Star mentionne qu'il aurait mouillé au large de Sousse et que les autorités françaises auraient tenté de le retenir sans y parvenir...

PS autre info sur ce site:
http://www.melbournestar.co.uk/Operation_Pedestal.html
le Brisbane Star aurait fait escale à Sousse pour y débarquer un membre d'équipage gravement blessé.
Cordialement.
Yvonnick

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Re: Monastir (Tunisie) 13 Aout 1942

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 3  Nouveau message de Enrico Cernuschi  Nouveau message 22 Jan 2010, 18:40

Merci,

is there anything French too?


EC


 

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Re: Monastir (Tunisie) 13 Aout 1942

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 4  Nouveau message de brehon  Nouveau message 22 Jan 2010, 19:03

Enrico Cernuschi a écrit:is there anything French too?

I did'n't found.
Sorry.
Cordialement.
Yvonnick

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Re: Monastir (Tunisie) 13 Aout 1942

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 5  Nouveau message de Prosper Vandenbroucke  Nouveau message 22 Jan 2010, 20:20

Hello Enrico,
Sorry, but I didn't found something about a french vessel.
Kindly regards
Prosper ;)
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Re: Monastir (Tunisie) 13 Aout 1942

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 6  Nouveau message de Enrico Cernuschi  Nouveau message 22 Jan 2010, 20:58

maybe we could try from an other direction. The British were very favourably impressed, according their reports, by the French positive attitude towards the Aug. 1942 convoy sailing around Cape Bon. Is there anything about the French governor attitude that summer?

Merci

EC


PS I'm unable to partecipate (in English) at the next meeting about Malta, but I', definitive: Malta was not decisive. The Axis convoys for North Africa were never stopped and the price paid by the British to save that island was higher than the losses caused by the planes, the subs and the ships based at Malta. It was a legend and a symbol with the British believing their own propaganda, nothing more.


 

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Re: Monastir (Tunisie) 13 Aout 1942

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 7  Nouveau message de brehon  Nouveau message 22 Jan 2010, 21:01

Ce serait très étonnant qu'un bâtiment français se soit aventuré à contrôler un cargo de l'opération Pedestal.
Les spécialistes doivent savoir quelles étaient les unités stationnées en Tunisie à cette date et leur activité.
L'hypothèse probable du contact évoqué par Enrico serait que lors de l'escale à Sousse (car apparemment elle a eu lieu), une embarcation ait poussé jusqu'au bord du Brisbane Star, au moins pour récupérer le blessé.
Est-ce qu'il y aurait trace de ce contact dans les archives de la Marine Nationale?
Cordialement.
Yvonnick

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Re: Monastir (Tunisie) 13 Aout 1942

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 8  Nouveau message de Pierre.S  Nouveau message 23 Jan 2010, 08:30

Bonjour Enrico,

Il y a ce site, "in english":

http://www.naval-history.net/xAH-MaltaSupply01b.htm

Avec un extrait où il est question du SS BRISBAN STAR et de sa rencontre avec les "frenchies":

"BRISBANE STAR meanwhile had also arrived at Malta, hugging the Tunisian coast during 13.8 the Master intended to make a night dash for Malta. During the day, while not attacked he had to cope with intervention by French shore signal stations, a boarding by French officers who tried to persuade him to go into port and surrender, and a good deal of pressure onboard from survivors and his Medical Officer who also wished to enter port due to the condition of the wounded. Nevertheless the Master stuck firmly to his intentions, and brought his ship into Malta during the afternoon of 14.8. "

Il y est aussi question de 96 survivants des naufrages internés par les français:

"During this attack EMPIRE HOPE was bombed and abandoned, her survivors being picked up by PENN, CLAN FERGUSON was torpedoed and blew up, she was loaded with 2000 tons of aviation petrol and 1500 tons of explosives amongst other items, however 96 survivors reached the Tunisian coast to be interned by the French. The BRISBANE STAR was torpedoed and fell out from the convoy, she will be referred to later. Finally, to complete the evening's chaos the Italian submarine ALAGI fired four torpedoes at KENYA just after 2100, the cruiser almost avoided all of them, only one striking her on the forefoot so that she was able to remain with the convoy capable of 25 knots."

Mais pas de nom d'unités françaises...

A+,
Pierre

Ps: merci pour la copie de l'article, il faut que j'apprenne :D l'italien....


 

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Re: Monastir (Tunisie) 13 Aout 1942

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 9  Nouveau message de 13emeDBLE  Nouveau message 23 Jan 2010, 11:54

Ciao Enrico,

I have found this, hope this will help you :

"All attention was now to be focused on the efforts to get these vessels Ohio, Dorset and Brisbane Star in.
The last, Brisbane Star, was the only one still entirely on her own. She was down by the head with ten feet of water in No 1 hold, but still capable of 8 knots. Captain Riley knew that they would need more than their fair share of luck to get enough to Malta unprotected during the daylight hours of the 13th (13 août 1942). Indeed almost as soon as the dawn brought the sun up over the Gulf of Hammamet they were sighted by one of the early morning search planes, an SM 79 from Sicily.
There was nothing Captain Riley could do except trust to the fates. Technically, being in territorial waters, neither the ship nor the plane had the right to open fire, unless they were attacked. It was therefore a matter of bluff as to who was panicked into letting fly first. In order to provoke the freighter the Italian pilot circled the Brisbane Star, carefully noting her armaments and the gaping hole in her bow. It was obvious she was one of the convoy, but the pilot, being an Italian, was very strict in observing international law. He therefore made a series of dummy runs as if to launch his torpedoes, in the hope of provoking the gunners, but in this he was unsuccessfull. Three times he banked and came in frighteningly at masthead height, but to no avail.
After the third attempt the pilot ruefully realized that he was going to get no change from Captain Riley and, after a brief period noting her course and speed, he flew off to the north. Captain Riley noted in his report that the pilot was a gentleman and observed the rules of war, but the Naval liaison officer, after the Italian had flown away, only awaited the arrival of a Teutonic gentleman to finish the job. It was doubted whether the Luftwaffe would be as fussy about rules as their Italian counterparts – but in the event no other aircraft followed.
They were now crossing the Gulf close to the shore and not surprisingly they were soon challenged by the prickly Vichy authorities. At ten o’clock the signal station of Hammamet started signaling frantically at them. There followed a somewhat absurd exchange of signals :
Hammamet : You should hoist your signal letters.
Brisbane Star : Please excuse me.
Hammamet : You should anchor.
Brisbane Star : My anchors are fouled. I cannot anchor.
Hammamet :You appear to be dragging your bow and stern anchors.
Brisbane Star : I have no stern anchors.
Hammamet : Do you require salaveg ?
Brisbane Star : No.
Hammamet : It is not safe to go too fast.
Somewhat tired of this corny cross-talk act, Captain Riley had been cautiously edging his bow round towards the open sea and in reply to this final piece of advice he hoisted a jumble of flags to keep the French authorities guessing and steamed away. The French remained silent as he disappeared.
Thankful as he was to have escaped from the Vichy French with a mere exchange of signals and useless information, Captain Riley soon found himself facing another problem. On leaving the safety of the coastal waters he laid himself open to further enemy assault and after a few hours further steaming he spotted what he took to be an enemy submarine keeping pace with him just outside territorial waters, obviously waiting for them to make the break for Malta.
It is not certain which submarine this was ; only the Asteria was stationed to the South of Sicily, but she made no sighting report. All the British submarines were on their patrol line to the north-east and they are been ordered to dive soon after 6 am when it was confirmed that they would not be needed. It may have been French, but to whichever nationality it belonged, it shadowed the Brisbane Star patiently for the next hour or so. As if this complication was not sufficient, the Vichy French made an official reappearance.
It was nearly five o’clock and Brisbane Star was well south of her desired position and the submarine was still in her. A small French patrol boat stood out from Monastir Bay and signaled Captain Riley to stop. Signaling unintelligible messages back to him the British freighter altered course and attempted to shake him off. After half an hour the French Captain finally got tired of the chase and, losing patience, fired a warning shot which landed ten yards off Brisbane Star bow. Captain Riley had no alternative but to heave to and once he had done so his ship was boarded by two Vichy French officers.
They were the essence of correctness and formality, but insisted that the British vessel should follow them back to Tunisia and be interned the rest of the war. Captain Riley was equal to the occasion; he invited them both down to his cabin for a drink. Here he plied them liberally with both whisky and charm – and his Irish blarney evidently cut through even Vichy ice for within that time he managed to persuade them not to proceed with their plans. Not only did they allow him to proceed, they also took off one of the hands who had been badly injuried by the torpedo explosion and wished the Brisbane Star “Bon Voyage”.
Captain Riley subsequently awarded the OBE and his citation included a tribute to his “initiative, tact, clear-thinking and determination”; it cannot be disputed that he well earned this praise.
The mollified Frenchmen steamed back to port, leaving Riley the task of losing the submarine. The coming of dusk greatly eased his problem and among the shoals and sandbars he finally satisfied himself that he had shaken her off. At nightfall on the 13th, after a very uneventful day, Brisbane Star nosed her crumpled bows towards Malta and commenced the last leg of her dash to safety…”

from PEDESTAL - the convoy that saved Malta, by Peter C. SMITH, Crécy Publishing, Manchester 1999 pp.188-191.

Last words to tell my sadness to read that you will not help me for the debate on Malta, as you ar far more competent than me on this matter :oops: :(

You know that I am sharing some of your conclusions on real Malta's importance during the WW2 in Mediterranean theatre of operation, not all but the biggest part... :cheers:

regards,

CM


 

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Re: Monastir (Tunisie) 13 Aout 1942

Nouveau message Post Numéro: 10  Nouveau message de Enrico Cernuschi  Nouveau message 23 Jan 2010, 12:40

Merci beacoup les gars,

c'est une guerre en dentelle en 1942.

It seems the French and Italian mood towards war was (and according my Lebanon reminds is still) more chivalrious than the other culture ones.

My lenguage limits would not allow anyway to join that interesting debate, but I can supply easy cartridges for your thesis today and tomorrow. :cheers:

Salut

EC


 

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